Lance Whitnall has called time on his tenure at EDFL club Craigieburn Craigieburn premiership coach Lance Whitnall will not return to the club in 2022, stepping down due to family commitments after a difficult 2021. Whitnall and his wife Rhiannon, both 27, claim they feared for their safety after his older brother Shane Whitnall and wife Tammy allegedly threatened the couple would end up "10 feet under" on Monday. In 2010, Whitnall shifted to the EDFL's Craigieburn Football Club where he served as playing assistant coach for two seasons; in 2011, Whitnall was the EDFL's A-Grade leading goalkicker, after kicking fourteen goals in the final round to secure the title. You already have a current subscription with us. Magistrate Lesley Fleming yesterday granted the intervention orders against Shane and Tammy, which prohibit them from contacting, assaulting, harassing or going within 100 metres of Lance and Rhiannon, their home or workplaces for the next 12 months. Carlton then drafted him under the father/son rule, and by Christmas 1996, Whitnall was the new custodian of Carlton's number 8 guernsey. Payment every 4 weeks for the first 12 weeks. Showing Editorial results for lance whitnall. In her statement to the court, Rhiannon Whitnall said Lance received threatening text messages from Shane on February 21 because he had not been told of Lance's promotion to captain of Carlton Football Club. Apr 25, 2010 10,762 3,906 Brooklyn AFL Club Port Adelaide Other Teams New York Yankees Sep 16, 2011 #1 Just wanna say that I love the guy. Lance Whitnall is a former Australian rules football player, and the ex-captain of the Carlton Football Club. CP=Contested possessions. Just think we can get someone with Grand Final experience, who's been the captain of a club and is well respected by his peers, he is widely and all too frequently considered "very smart" as a footballer. BR=Brownlow votes. It could take up to 5 business days before your first paper delivery arrives. FORMER Carlton captain Lance Whitnall has agreed to stand aside as vice-president of a suburban cricket club, after a scandal involving the mysterious disappearance of thousands of dollars before it was returned last week. 400 Lance Whitnall Photos and Premium High Res Pictures - Getty Images Images Creative Editorial Video Creative Editorial FILTERS CREATIVE EDITORIAL VIDEO 400 Lance Whitnall Premium High Res Photos Browse 400 lance whitnall stock photos and images available, or start a new search to explore more stock photos and images. He has been All. CG=Clangers. I say lets get Lance the PSD, and to make space off load Buddy. Millions of high-quality images, video, and music options are waiting for you. Organize, control, distribute and measure all of your digital content. At the completion of the 2007 season, concerns by the club about his degenerative knee being able to stand up to the pressures of AFL football forced Whitnall into retirement, bringing his 11-season, 216 game career at Carlton to an end at 28 years of age. Shane replied straight away, claiming that it was a promise," he said. Streamline your workflow with our best-in-class digital asset management system. When I was a kid growing up I had a soft spot for Carlton but actually barracked for Essendon, only because my cousin Ashley who I was close to barracked for them and they (the Bombers) were up and running in 84 and 85 when I started barracking., Lance Whitnall celebrates THAT goal against Essendon in the 1999 preliminary final. Access the best of Getty Images with our simple subscription plan. It was in this match that he well and truly had established his presence. Please try again later. Each payment, once made, is non-refundable, subject to law. Lance Whitnall was born on 23 August, 1979 in Australian, is an Australian rules footballer, born 1979. At the completion of the 2007 season, concerns by the club about his degenerative knee being able to stand up to the pressures of AFL football forced Whitnall into retirement, bringing his 11-season, 216 game career at Carlton to an end at 28 years of age. He played there in 2008 and 2009. Matar es fcil. Lance Whitnall reflects on his career after his induction into the Carlton Hall of Fame. 9 Anthony Rieth From then on, you can then use Sign In with Google to access your subscription and Google will do the billing for the subscription and process your payments. Seewww.heraldsun.com.au/subscriptionterms for full details. "As of now, I'll no longer be speaking to him as a brother," he said. Weight : 100 kg (15 stone, 10 lbs.) "I was disappointed with Shane because of the way I heard him speak to Rhiannon on the phone, so I didn't have any contact with him for about a week.". Descripcin general: Un pueblo est plagado de una serie de muertes aparentemente accidentales, pero la seorita Marple est convencida de que se trata de una mano ms siniestra cuando un aldeano que se dirige a Scotland Yard sea despachado convenientemente. However he struggled in 2007 with ongoing problems with a degenerative condition in his knee. Appropriately enough, Lance turned out for the first time in the opening round of 97 against Essendon hauling in nine marks, booting four goals and earning Dustin Fletcher (whom hed idolised) as his opponent on the paddock that grew. Carlton coach Michael Voss is confident a summer of high-intensity training will pay off in the long run. Its common knowledge that I was never a speedster, but I tried to use my brain to get around that athletic inability. By 1995 he was centre half-forward and captain of the Victorian Under 16 state team, and a year later was a star in the Northern Knights side that won the TAC Cup Under 18 Grand Final. The Getty Images design is a trademark of Getty Images. cost) for the first 12 months, charged as $24 every 4 weeks. [3][4] He has been in an assistant coaching role at the Calder Cannons in the TAC Cup since 2016. Grow your brand authentically by sharing brand content with the internets creators. He was there for me every step of the way and it was great that he flew down from Darwin to be in the room to see me presented with the award, Whitnall said. Lance Whitnall; Personal information; Date of birth 23 August 1979: Original team(s) Lalor / Northern Knights: Debut: Round 1, 31 March 1997, Carlton Whitnall says the dispute escalated over following weeks with his brother stating in a text message that Rhiannon "better watch her back". In 2017, Whitnall returned to play football for the Division 3 NFL side, Laurimar Power Football Club, where he was their leading goal kicker, kicking 29 goals for the season. He became a vital part of Carlton's forward line, and in Round 17, 1998 against the Western Bulldogs, the then-19-year-old Whitnall became one of the youngest players to kick 8 goals in a game. Mandatory. In reflecting on his time at the football club, the suitably modest Whitnall saw himself as a Carlton contributor - nothing more, nothing less. It seems like only yesterday that I finished as a Carlton player and the day before that I started. Boards are the best place to save images and video clips. Lance Whitnall Career : 1997 - 2007 Debut : Round 1, 1997 vs Essendon, aged 17 years, 220 days Carlton Player No. Lance Whitnall Known as Lance Whitnall Born 23 August 1979 (age 42) Age at first & last AFL game First game: 17y 220d Last game: 28y 10d Height and weight Height: 192 cm Weight: 100 kg Senior clubs Carlton Jumper numbers Carlton : 8 Family links Graeme Whitnall (Father) Lance Whitnall Advanced stats The Essendon District Football League club announced on its social media that Whitnall had stood down from the role after three years due to family commitments. Our Privacy Policy includes important information about our collection, use and disclosure of your personal information (including to provide you with targeted advertising based on your online activities). "If we let all the secrets out I don't think he will still be captain.". W . 1973 Rd 13 - Ron Ebbage helps a concussed Robert Walls from Arden St. "I replied immediately, asking whether that was a threat. But only now, with his induction into the Carlton Football Club Hall of Fame almost 20 years later, has Whitnall revealed the story behind the story of his Look at me moment - and of the identity of the person somewhere within the since-demolished Smokers Stand to whom he was directing his wave. . The Getty Images design is a trademark of Getty Images. In the immediate aftermath of his induction into the Hall, Whitnall, the 216-game former captain, three-time leading goalkicker and John Nicholls Medallist, conceded that as distinct from prelim final day, the moment had got to him. Prices after the first 12 months may be varied as per full Terms and Conditions. Collect, curate and comment on your files. . A valid active email address and Australian mobile phone number are required for account set up. Renewals occur unless cancelled as per full Terms and Conditions. For faster navigation, this Iframe is preloading the Wikiwand page for Lance Whitnall . cost) billed approximately 4 weekly for the first 12 weeks. Our song: Alby's book sheds further light, 1946 Aerial Princes Park, cropped and enlarged, Ian Collins with Peter Jones and Brian Kekovich. Were working to restore it. Home Delivery is not available in all areas. We don't have much information about He's past relationship and any previous engaged. Rewind to Christmas 1996 when Whitnall was taken by the Club under the father-son rule, his father Graeme having turned out in 66 matches for Carlton between 1974 and 81. Former Carlton rover Leo Brereton passes away. Lance Whitnalls income source is mostly from being a successful Player. Millions of high-quality images, video, and music options are waiting for you. FORMER Carlton wing/half-back Graeme Whitnall, the father of the club's 200-game former captain Lance, has died in Darwin at the age of 69. Carlton Legend Robert Walls spoke to Carlton Media about the impact of Ian Collins ahead of his elevation to Legend status in the Carlton Hall of Fame. Lance Whitnall (born 23 August 1979) is a former Australian rules footballer, and a former captain of the Carlton Football Club . Whitnall started at the club as a football manager in 2018 before taking on the coaching role the following season. Millions of high-quality images, video, and music options are waiting for you. We have estimated Tap into Getty Images' global scale, data-driven insights, and network of more than 340,000 creators to create content exclusively for your brand. Subscription automatically renews at least 24 hours before the end of the current billing period. Dating & Relationship status He is currently single. 4 days ago. It also explains how you can access or seek correction of your personal information, how you can complain about a breach of the Australian Privacy Principles and how we will deal with a complaint of that nature. In 2005, Whitnall turned around his previous weight problems and came out looking as fit as he had ever been. Why subscribe to become a Full Digital Access or Paper Delivery + Full Digital Access Member? Ben Higgins @ben_higgins84 3 min read August 24, 2021 - 4:00PM Hume Leader Essendon Don't miss out on the headlines from Essendon. In 2000 Whitnall had his best ever season when he kicked 70 goals, including his career best 9.4 against Brisbane in Round 16, and was named in the All-Australian Team. is 6 4 and Weight 220lbs. Learn How rich is He in this year and how He spends money? [8], "Reservoir premiership coach Ross Terranova inks deal with EDFL club Glenroy for 2016 season", "Former Carlton captain Lance Whitnall stands aside at suburban cricket club over cash scandal", "2017 Season Review Heidelberg Golf Club Division 3 |", Lance Whitnall at the Carlton Football Club website, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lance_Whitnall&oldid=1094505079, This page was last edited on 23 June 2022, at 01:23. How long does it take for my home delivery to start? You are only entitled to this subscription if and for as long as you hold a valid and active subscription with your Google Account. FF=Free kicks for. Not in conjunction with any other offer. FA=Free kicks against. Search instead for. Search instead in. This award means a lot to me, it really does, Whitnall said. He capped off a solid 2006 with victory in the Blues' best and fairest (the John Nicholls Medal), and at the age of 27, Whitnall became the second youngest Carlton player (after Robert Walls) to play 200 AFL games. Select the subscription offer youd like to buy, click Subscribe with Google, and you will be directed to complete your purchase using your Google account. Whitnall finished his playing career at Glenroy, also in the EDFL, and also coached there from 2012 until 2015. Craigieburn's stable of fleet-footed youngsters showcased their hard running and relentless pressure in Saturday's EDFL Division 1 grand final, leaving coach Lance Whitnall bursting with pride . "He (Shane) called Rhiannon a selfish bitch and after a little while hung up on her," he said in his statement. 1 Early career (1997-1999) 2 Mid-career (2000-2003) 3 Late career (2004-2007) 4 Statistics; 5 Post-AFL career; 6 References; George Hewett feels confident in his body as the season approaches. Now contented in retirement as a player, Whitnall readily admitted that his love for the Club has never been greater. Carlton FC warmup.jpg 1,600 1,200; 498 KB. 2023 Getty Images. His brother Shane, who applied for his own intervention order against Lance and Rhiannon last night, said he intended to wipe his brother from his life "100 per cent". The young red-headed, freckled Whitnall, known as "Banger", "Big Red" or simply "Red", quickly established himself in Carlton's best 22, kicking four goals on debut, and missing only a handful of games in 1997 and playing every game in 1998 and 1999. CARLTON skipper Lance Whitnall and his wife have been granted intervention orders against his brother and sister-in-law after an explosive dispute over a trip to Melbourne Zoo landed them in court yesterday. All structured data from the file namespace is available under the. CL=Clearances. Whitnall also played cricket at a suburban level for the Lalor Warriors Cricket Club in the North Metro Cricket Association, where he was an opening or top order batsman, and was on the club's committee until 2016. Full Digital Access + Weekend Paper Delivery 12 Month Plan costs $312 (min. Early career (1997-1999) [ edit] Full Digital Access 12 Month Plan costs $208 (min.cost) for the first 12 months, charged as $16 every 4 weeks. Media in category "Lance Whitnall" The following 3 files are in this category, out of 3 total. This option is only available where expressly indicated with the offer. Lance Whitnall celebrates THAT goal against Essendon in the 1999 preliminary final. Suspended. Kernahan was out injured a lot through what would be his last year and Earl Spalding was out injured as well, so I pretty much got thrown straight in, lapped it up and it just went from there.. Lance Whitnall. It explains that if you do not provide us with information we have requested from you, we may not be able to provide you with the goods and services you require. 1975 Rd 16 - Trainer Ron Ebbage caring for Robert Walls. Tammy Whitnall, a mother of two, said she wanted a forum to air her grievances about her dispute with Lance and Rhiannon. Kevin Hall spoke to Carlton Media about the footprint left behind by Percy Bentley ahead of his induction into the Carlton Hall of Fame. At that time I can clearly remember being told blink and its gone and not thinking a lot about it, but looking back now its certainly the truth.. For full details, see our Terms and Conditions www.heraldsun.com.au/connectedterms. The former Blues spearhead was this week embroiled in a missing money probe at northern suburbs club Lalor Warriors, igniting a feud between team members. Each payment, once made, is non-refundable, subject to law. He is not dating anyone. Each payment, once made, is non-refundable, subject to law. The footballer said Shane called Rhiannon while they were at the zoo on January 22 and "sounded angry because his children weren't brought along". Ive got more than a soft spot for Carlton. Boards are the best place to save images and video clips. He is a member of famous Player with the age 43 years old group. Then, after the initial 12 weeks it is $28 billed approximately 4 weekly. He was heartbroken Essendon had lost, but rapt for me at the same time. Lance Whitnall (born 23 August 1979) is a former Australian rules footballer, and a former captain of the Carlton Football Club. Ive got kids of my own now and thats what I always try to instil into them try to do your best no matter the situation.. I love being around the Club and I love going down to see the players, particularly when times are hard, to support them - because thats what they need.. Whitnall finished his playing career at Glenroy, also in the EDFL, and also coached there from 2012 until 2015. Miss Marple - Temporada 4 Episodio 2. In a statement tendered to the court yesterday, Lance said his close relationship with his brother became strained a month ago when Shane's children were not invited to join a family outing to Melbourne Zoo. He played there in 2008 and 2009. Access the best of Getty Images with our simple subscription plan. CARLTON skipper Lance Whitnall and his wife have been granted intervention orders against his brother and sister-in-law after an explosive dispute over a trip to Melbourne Zoo landed them in court yesterday. Lance Whitnall for Carlton in action during the AFL Semi Final match played between the Richmond Tigers and the Carlton Blues held at the Melbourne Cricket Ground, Melbourne, Australia. 220. Home Search instead in. We don't have much information about He's past relationship and any previous engaged. Blueseum - History of the Carlton Football Club, 2nd in Carlton's Best and Fairest Award, 3rd in Carlton's Best and Fairest Award, 5th in Carlton's Best and Fairest Award, 6th in Carlton's Best and Fairest Award, 8th in Carlton's Best and Fairest Award, All Carlton Senior Hauls 7 goals and over, another six the following week against Adelaide, Summary of playing statistics for Lance Whitnall, From 'Lanty' to 'Simmo' - Blues Brothers 156-year unbroken run. Mark Stevens for Adelaide brings Lance Whitnall of Carlton to the ground with a tackle, during the match between the Carlton Blues and the Adelaide. In 2005, Whitnall turned around his previous weight problems and came out looking as fit as he had ever been. I was waving to a cousin of mine, Ashley Williams, who barracks for Essendon and was up there that day. The young red-headed, freckled Whitnall, known as "Banger", "Big Red" or simply "Red", quickly established himself in Carlton's best 22, kicking four goals on debut, and missing only a handful of games in 1997 and playing every game in 1998 and 1999. So, how much is Lance Whitnall worth at the age of 43 years old? Tap into Getty Images' global scale, data-driven insights, and network of more than 340,000 creators to create content exclusively for your brand. 1 Brent Walters B. Walters. Lance Whitnall (born 23 August 1979) is a former Australian rules footballer, and a former captain of the Carlton Football Club. Lance whitnall.jpg 294 503; 147 KB. Were sorry, this feature is currently unavailable. Lance Whitnall. Premiership coach Lance Whitnall has re-committed to Craigieburn for 2021 as the club looks to establish itself in the Essendon District Football League's top flight. The beauty of having a digital subscription or membership is that it travels with you. "I'm very disappointed that it's come to this. Outside court, the star forward, who was last week appointed captain of the Blues, said he was disappointed the dispute had reached court. Monday to Friday 7:30am 6:00pm, Saturday & Sunday 7:00am 11:30am (AEST), App or digital edition only customer? Last Drafted: Round 1, Pick #1 1996 Pre-Draft Selections Draft by Carlton Blues. I prided myself on trying to give effort every time I was out there, whether we were winning by 10 goals or losing by 10 goals, Whitnall said. Blues celebrate a special night at the Hall of Fame. 1975 Rd 16 - Trainer Ron Ebbage assisting a fallen Robert Walls. No cancellations during the first 12 months. cost) every 4 weeks unless cancelled as per full Terms and Conditions. Carlton Legend John Nicholls spoke to Carlton Media about the legacy of Horrie Clover ahead of his elevation to Legend status in the Carlton Hall of Fame. "I replied to these messages telling the sender to shut the f--- up, and asking what she did for a job," he said. (Photo: AFL Media) In the immediate aftermath of his induction into the Hall, Whitnall, the 216-game former captain, three-time leading goalkicker and John Nicholls Medallist, conceded that as distinct from prelim final day, the moment had got to him. Any Questions? 2023 Getty Images. Lance Whitnall's net worth New customers only. This automatically renews to be charged as $24 (min. Through the 11 seasons that he played for Carlton, Whitnall was the mainstay up front and throughout it all the boy from Lalor gained from his fathers steadying influence. Whitnall was recruited by NTFL side the Palmerston Magpies after being delisted by Carlton and played in two of the club's matches in the 2007/08 season, kicking several goals. This page was last edited on 16 May 2019, at 20:47. Grow your brand authentically by sharing brand content with the internets creators. 2023 Getty Images. He became a vital part of Carlton's forward line, and in Round 17, 1998 against the Western Bulldogs, the then-19-year-old Whitnall became one of the youngest players to kick 8 goals in a game. ITremains one of the more defining images of the frenetic final quarter of the 1999 preliminary final Lance Whitnall, arms raised, hands waving, moments after booting the best of the 348 goals he ever kicked for the Blues, from beyond 50 to the Ponsford Stand end at the MCG. At 43 years old, Lance Whitnall height It was in this match that he well and truly had established his presence. According to our Database, He has no children. Whitnall was recruited by NTFL side the Palmerston Magpies after being delisted by Carlton and played in two of the club's matches in the 2007/08 season, kicking several goals. He has been in an assistant coaching role at the Calder Cannons in the TAC Cup since 2016. Fraser Brown for the Carlton Blues leaps into the arms of teammate Lance Whitnall as the siren sounds to give Carlton victory by one point over. Lance Whitnall of Carlton in action during the AFL First Preliminary Semi Final between the Carlton Blues and the West Coast Eagles played at the. Who plays more mid time, Z Williams or Hewett? Prices after the first 12 months may be varied as per full Terms and Conditions. Full Digital Access + Weekend Paper Delivery $8 billed every 4 weeks for the first 12 weeks, then $36 billed every 4 weeks. Not in conjunction with any other offer. This award is above the best and fairest as I see it and is a great honour. Organize, control, distribute and measure all of your digital content. Payment will be charged to your Google Account. Playing Height: 192cm Playing Weight: 100kg Position: Defender. Hailing from Talbot, within close proximity of John Nicholls' home town of Maryborough in 1973, the 21 year-old Whitnall found his way to Princes Park, having earned Maryborough Football Club's senior Best and Fairest award at 19 and savoured . Get premium, high resolution news photos at Getty Images If you subscribe directly with us you will also get access to our News+ Network which is made up of some of our most popular news sites, like. Legend. Lance Whitnall (born 23 August 1979) is a former Australian rules footballer, and a former captain of the Carlton Football Club. Contents. Search instead in, Showing results for lance whitnall. Not in conjunction with any other offer. Debuting in 1997 as a 17-year-old, the young Whitnall was recruited in the 1996 AFL Draft under the father-son rule, with his father Graeme having played 66 games for Carlton in the 1970s and 1980s. Carlton loses member of Gill clan The Club is mourning the loss of Richard Gill. View popular celebrities life details, birth signs and real ages. thurmanmunson Brownlow Medallist. [5], Whitnall also played cricket at a suburban level for the Lalor Warriors Cricket Club in the North Metro Cricket Association, where he was an opening or top order batsman,[6] and was on the club's committee until 2016. Allow up to 5 days for home delivery to commence. New customers only. He is currently single. Lance Whitnall for Carlton celebrates with Adrian Hickmott of Carlton after kicking a goal, during the round 18 AFL game between the Essendon Bombers. A tribute to former Blues ruckman, Kevin O'Brien. Prices after the introductory pricing period may be varied in accordance with the full Terms and Conditions. The Eagles produced a winless season when they were last in Premier Division in 2017 but are confident of retaining the majority of their list. Aaron Sandilands and Lance Whitnall.jpg 769 1,372; 169 KB. . DOB : 23 August, 1979 Captain: 2007 All Australian: 2000 A long-term member of the leadership team, and widely regarded as having one of the best football brains in the game, Whitnall first took over the captaincy of the team during Anthony Koutoufides' hand injury in 2006, and became the full-time captain in 2007 after Koutoufides relinquished the position. West Allis Central. He capped off a solid 2006 with victory in the Blues' best and fairest (the John Nicholls Medal), and at the age of 27, Whitnall became the second youngest Carlton player (after Robert Walls) to play 200 AFL games. Subscribe with Google lets you purchase a subscription, using your Google account. Also learn how He earned most of networth at the age of 41 years old? In 2010, Whitnall shifted to the EDFL's Craigieburn Football Club where he served as playing assistant coach for two seasons;[2] in 2011, Whitnall was the EDFL's A-Grade leading goalkicker, after kicking fourteen goals in the final round to secure the title. (Photo: AFL Media). It's a private family matter that I want to stay private. See www.heraldsun.com.au/subscriptionterms for full details. Formal complaints tendered to Melbourne Magistrates Court yesterday revealed police apprehended Shane and Tammy at Melbourne Airport when they returned from a holiday on Wednesday to question them about the allegations. I always wanted to play League footy, but I always had one eye on Carlton - and once Carlton spoke to me as a 16-year-old and showed that they were interested in me there was never any doubt about where I was going to play, Whitnall said. [5], In 2017, Whitnall returned to play football for the Division 3 NFL side, Laurimar Power Football Club, where he was their leading goal kicker, kicking 29 goals for the season. Whitnall finished with 46 goals for the 1998 season, followed by 55 goals in 1999. But if your subscription or membership includes home delivery, then you can request to suspend your paper delivery through My Account. leading goalkickers, "Reservoir premiership coach Ross Terranova inks deal with EDFL club Glenroy for 2016 season", "Former Carlton captain Lance Whitnall stands aside at suburban cricket club over cash scandal", "2017 Season Review Heidelberg Golf Club Division 3 |", Lance Whitnall at the Carlton Football Club website, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lance_Whitnall&oldid=1094505079, Australian rules footballers from Victoria (Australia), Short description is different from Wikidata, Use Australian English from September 2015, All Wikipedia articles written in Australian English, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, This page was last edited on 23 June 2022, at 01:23. IF=Inside 50s. Home delivery is not available in all areas. On the same day, Whitnall said Tammy sent Rhiannon, a stay-at-home mother of two, abusive messages about the fact that she did not have a job. Access the best of Getty Images with our simple subscription plan. Are required for account set up to lance whitnall private on 16 may 2019, at 20:47 data from the namespace... ; relationship status he is a member of Gill clan the Club has never been.! Think he will still be captain. `` the Club as a brother, '' he said subscription! 43 years old, lance Whitnall celebrates that goal against Essendon in the 1999 final! It and is a trademark of Getty Images with our simple subscription plan is mostly from a... A trademark of Getty Images age 43 years old waiting for you relationship any! Replied straight away, claiming that it travels with you 5 business days before your first paper delivery full! A summer of high-intensity training will pay off in the TAC Cup since.... 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